As the sun sets on the origins of hip-hop, we find ourselves in an increasingly hostile environment of information.  The city moves fast, the streets are a swarm of visual noise, and somehow, popular culture keeps recycling itself.  They even say that no one sits down for a decent meal together anymore. 

For these reasons, it was refreshing to relax and enjoy an Italian feast with four people who have a lot to say about politics, the birth of rap, and leprechauns.  Apparently, we even stumbled upon a cultural fountain of youth.  My dinner guests were four artists whose names have become synonymous with urban culture: Ice-T, Lee Quinones, John Leguizamo, and Rosie Perez.  We all know Ice-T as the loudmouthed, entreprenuerial MC who has been ‘respected since ‘83.’ He sounded off on every topic available – even referring to himself in the third person now and then – but he always kept the group laughing.  Seated across from Ice was the amiable Lee Quinones, the man partially responsible for the ascendance of graffiti from vandalism to high art.  Lee once starred in the hip-hop blueprint Wild Style, and he does a vocal imitation of a ringing cell phone that can send a whole room of publicists reaching into their pockets.  Next to Lee was John Leguizamo, the actor who has transformed the Latin identity during cathartic stage performances like Mambo Mouth and the Emmy award-winning Freak.  Finally, at the head of the table sat Rosie Perez, the Oscar-nominated actress and self-proclaimed first hip-hop choreographer.  As we were served an exquisite meal provided by Manhattan’s Il Baggatto, Rosie said, “Good appetite everybody, and blessings.”  Then we dug in.

Ice-T: Politics is like The Matrix, it’s like, some people understand it, and other people that don’t know about it are better left not knowin.’  Because if you let ‘em know too much, it’ll really fuck their life up.

John Leguizamo: You mean like the rest of the country.  They’ll just get sold a bill of goods and just buy it – it’s amazing, man.

Ice-T: Some people are just like that.  I found out that I can contaminate peoples’ brains, but I choose not to… I got all my conspiracy shit and all that…

JL: But this is the most obvious time that the conspiracy…because we’re just so obvious!  The whole weapons of mass destruction was just b.s.!

Ice-T: But some people aren’t there.  Like my girl, she’s not there.  She’s a happy person.  So should I-

JL: Contaminate that, right, right.  Poison the well.

Ice-T: ‘Cause I could sit up and just start tellin’ her, just break it down, and just fuck your life up.

Dan Redding: Well she does have a right to disagree.

JL: Right.

Ice-T: She has a right to disagree, but some people are truthfully oblivious.

Lee Quinones: I think people choose to do that.  I think people are smarter than what we think.

JL: A lot of people are smart, but then there’s a bunch of people that could be a lot smarter.  Like the fact that Bush took the presidency… and nobody said anything.  In the whole country, nobody said anything.  Chads, and all that bull?  C’mon.

Ice-T: So that’s the question that you have to ask sometimes: Is it your job to really freak people out?  I stopped.  I used to do it.  Like if I would catch somebody and they didn’t know, I thought it was my job to tell ‘em about all the shit that’s going wrong in the world.  Now they’ll be like, ‘Oh, the world is nice!’  and I’m like, yeah, you’re right.

DR: So do you think you have a responsibility as an artist to tell your version of the truth?  I mean, you got yourself into some hot water (with censorship) in the past.

Ice-T: It all has to do with you as a person.  If you feel it’s your responsibility as a person to do something… but just being a celebrity doesn’t make you feel you should do it.  Some people feel they should speak intelligent and change the world.  Some people aren’t qualified to do that. 

JL: We’re entertainers.

Ice-T: Do what you feel.  If you feel it, do it.

JL: (Sean) Penn did that cool thing about going to Iraq, but then he got so much heat for it, man. 

DR: Instead of making art, he went (to Iraq) and did a photo shoot.

RP: Woah, woah, woah!  Hold up, back the fuck up.

All: (laughter)

RP: First of all, it is every taxpayer’s right… to express their opinion. Earnestly, or not so earnestly.  Intelligently, or not so intelligently.  If you are a taxpayer, that means you are paying the government’s paycheck.  So you have a right to tell them how to perform…just like a bum on the street, it’s his right because he was born in this country, if he’s participating in this country, he has a right to state his opinion…

DR: But (a bum) doesn’t have the ability to fly to Iraq with a camera crew.

JL: Entertainers aren’t allowed…they’re only allowed to entertain.  And once you start to become serious or having some sort of political thing, people resent it.  People don’t dig that.

Ice-T: So that’s why I say it should be personal.  If it’s personally what you feel you should do, then you do it and let the chips fall where they may.  If it’s your religion, if it’s your belief, then you do it and take the heat…I made this record called Freedom Of Speech: Just Watch What You Say, and the whole theory is that there’s no such thing as free speech because you have to be prepared for the ramifications.  If I say something about gay people, I gotta be prepared for them to attack me.  If I say something about the cops, I gotta be prepared.  You got the right to say, ‘Ice-T, you’re a fucking asshole,’ but then I got the right to reach out and bust you in your head.  You can’t come home to your girl and be like, ‘baby, I just cheated on you – free speech!’

All: (laughter)

LQ: I think my argument all about it, I mean, basically – and people are always giving me mad beef over it – the whole thing narrows down to religion.  It’s one of the most horrible, insidious things ever introduced to mankind.  You know, because I think it’s like this whole, huge, big lie.  And it’s suppressed people to the point where they feel guilty, they feel like they shouldn’t question certain things, especially when you bring the whole ‘God’ name into it.  You know, like, this is basically a class war that we’re involved in.

Ice-T: See, in the United States, we don’t have only one God, we got a whole bunch of religions.  So they create another God called Patriotism… So the flag is a church in itself.

LQ: Right. It’s replaced the church, the power of the church.

All: (silence)

Ice-T: See, you said religion, and the table got scared.

All: (laughter)

JL: Yeah, yeah!  When I did (sketch comedy show) House of Buggin’, I did a priest sketch… there were people protesting and picketing.  Priests were demanding that the show be canceled.  And they won.  But it’s tough.  Religion is a tough thing to talk against.  So I’ma shut up.

LQ: It’s so instilled in the people… I always said to my Mom, ‘Santa Claus ain’t comin’, I’m sorry.’  I believe in the stars, I believe in the Earth, I believe in people.  (Religion) is a recurring thing, I just don’t abide by it.  That’s the catalyst to all these wars that we’ve been waging against each other as humans for eons.  Even oppressing women. 

RP: Well, if you wanna get even deeper, it’s really not about religion, it goes back to control.  Because religion was implemented because control was necessary… Now we have laws – it’s supposed to be separation of church and state – but we have laws to take the place of religion…I believe in God but I don’t believe in God the way I was taught to believe in God.

JL: Right.  It’s hard to fight against the belief you were taught, though… I grew up Catholic and Seventh Day Adventist and it’s so hard to like, shake that in your head… I can talk about them, there’s not that many of them! They don’t picket that much like Catholic people do!

All: (laughter)

DR: You four are all involved in popular culture, whether it be film, music, dancing, stage or fine art.  Have you seen any major changes in the last ten or twenty years?  Have you seen a shift, culturally?

JL: I have.

RP: I’ve seen a backlash. I haven’t seen a shift forward, I’ve seen a shift backwards… MTV basically is American Bandstand.  It’s just with the technology brought forward.  (MTV has) rap, and it’s flashier, but it’s basically American Bandstand… I quit choreographing because everyone was like, ‘we want the Fly Girls stuff, we want the Fly Girls stuff.’  I look at a Jay-Z video and it’s like, ‘Oh my God, they’re doin’ Fly Girls stuff.’  Nothing has progressed.  Real hip-hop?  Real hip-hop was never dictated to the people who love hip-hop – they created it.  Now, because of video, hip-hop dancing or whatever is dictated to the masses so they’re just repeating what they see instead of creating something new.

DR: I think the other cultural drawback of MTV is that they realized that sex is their most powerful tool.

Ice-T: That’s a great thing!

DR: You think so?

RP: Yes and no.  It’s a double edged sword.

JL: MTV – who’s watching that but kids?  My daughter’s gonna be watching that, she’s gonna be getting her values from that nonsense?  I’m gonna have to block (the channel)!

Ice-T: That’s rock ‘n roll, though. You go rock ‘n roll, you go sex, you go adolescence, you go rebellion.  You gotta feed this energy as a kid.

JL: Yeah, but it was great back in the day when you were kinda frustrated, and you were tryin’ to find your way and get the girls and spin the bottle in the basement, turn off the lights. 

Ice-T: You know what you’re doin’?  Quincy Jones told me, he said, ‘you gotta be careful, or as you get older you become the enemy of yourself.’  It’s like…’It was great when we spun the bottle!’  So now you see the booty shakin’ and stuff, you’re like, ‘is this okay?’  Well, times have changed.  It’s the same because (current generations) don’t have the spin the bottle to put it against.  So it’s just how it is.

RP: (to Ice-T) You were among the first doing what you did…and Kool G Rap was, and Spoonie Gee, they were nasty.  There was a lyric in Kool G Rap that was like, ‘after I did her, I wiped my dick on the curtain.’  I couldn’t believe it!

Ice-T: Being in entertainment, it’s like, you gotta keep your brain open…you gotta listen to the new stuff… Yo, when I look at 50 Cent right now, I see N.W.A., I see all the imagery we put into the game, and yet still, he’s new and he’s doin’ it and you gotta love it.  Or else you fall back a level…I was born into hip-hop, meaning, it was not around when I was born, and then it happened.  The kids that are walking around today, eighteen years old – it’s been here ever since they’ve been in life… So when you’re talkin’ about shell top Adidas, you sound like a grandpa.  (in grandpa voice) “I used to wear dem.”  Get the hell outta here!  I’ll tell you the best thing about this culture.  This is my belief.  This is the only culture generation that the children and the parents are damn near living the same life.  It’s like, we dress like our kids, we play video games with our kids, we listen to the same music.  I get in my car, I put on my rap tape, my kid loves it.  My father never played nothin’ I wanted to listen to!  Cuz there’s no generation gap.  We’re kids, we’re the generation that really didn’t grow up.  Look at me!  I’m forty-five years old! And I don’t see it slowin’ down!  I’m havin’ a great motherfuckin’ time!  Rappin’ kept us all young!

LQ: I’ll tell you why.  Because (hip-hop) is probably one of the first cultures in American culture that encompasses everyone at the same time.  Because everyone feels the struggle…and that’s why young and old totally identify with having a voice.

Ice-T: But see, I look at you right now (pointing at Lee), and you’re still a graffiti artist that was hittin’ trains.

LQ: That’s sad. 

All: (laughter)

JL: Those (paint) fumes have gotta do something after awhile!

LQ: I’m glowing in the dark!

Ice-T: No! Because you were so powerful in your youth…you were so powerful at that point, you never aged. 

LQ: I respect that.  I know what you’re sayin’.

Ice-T: It’s like you’re still seein’ little Ice-T.

RP: Yes, and I agree with you…but there’s a backlash there…Ok, I’m gonna get deep on you, because during American Bandstand is when the tv age came to full focus with kids.  TV was fairly new…it really wasn’t anything that was catered to kids.

DR: Because this was before kids had money.

JL: Before they were a marketable group.

RP: To me, the only creative kind of urban music right now for me that I find new…is reggae.  Cuz when I see the girls walk down the street with gold in their hair, gold sandals, boom-boom shorts…you don’t see that on MTV!  I appreciate that!  They are just rockin’ it!  They are doing their thing and they don’t care!  It was the same thing with NWA and (Ice-T).  Nobody saw anybody with pants saggin’ – that was a criminal thing.  You brought the jail to the streets.  And that blew up big.  You know what I’m sayin’?  But now, what is new?  Tell me who is new!  When A Tribe Called Quest came on the scene, they were new.  When Wu-Tang came on the scene, they were new…

Ice-T: I remember when we used to go into the radio stations…the format for a singer was you went to church, you went to school, you listened to your mother, and you became a singer.  (Gangsta rappers like myself) were like, we just got outta jail, we’re cursin’, callin’ girls bitches.  And they were like, ‘You’re not gonna make it!’  In other words, the formula for gangsta rap was a formula for failure that won… To me it’s always been rock ‘n roll.  I’ma turn the speakers up, and I’ma create chaos.  They used to say, ‘don’t let him stand on the stage!’  I’m like, ‘I’m trying to create a riot.’

All:(laughter)

Ice-T: That’s my agenda: to create a riot.  That’s rock ‘n roll: the energy of mayhem and chaos.  We used to fight pit bulls onstage and shoot off blank guns… I learned from (producer) Rick Rubin…he said ‘there’s an art in saying the most wrong possible shit.’  Eminem does it.  It’s an art. 

RP: Like Lenny Bruce.

Ice-T: The way to make someone feel you is scare ‘em.  You know like when you’re at the movies and those chills go up your body?  Say somethin’ so honest and true, with good drama…and sex.  You feel these things…but you know what happened at the end of all this, you know what we get?  The year 2003, what we get?  The grand finale?  Reality television… we just say, ‘fuck it, just aim the cameras at people.’

DR: The identity of a celebrity has changed to your everyday person on the street.  It’s not even fifteen minutes of fame anymore, it’s about three minutes.

Ice-T: This (interview) is a reality show.

JL: The reality photo shoot!

All: (laughter)

Ice-T: Like we always eat together at night.  Get it straight – I don’t fuckin’ like asparagus!  I don’t eat greens.

JL: You’re gonna get voted off the island if you keep this up!

RP: I know if I was on a reality show, I would be the first person voted off.  You know me…I’m rollin’ a fat one, leave me alone!

All: (laughter)

DR: But that’s what they love, they love controversy… That’s gotta ruin your life though, if you make a fool out of yourself on one of these reality tv shows.

JL: People don’t care, people don’t care. 

RP: You think the people on these shows are regular folk?

JL: No, they’re all a little twisted.

DR: Regular folk are a little twisted, I think.

RP: I think regular folk are twisted, and twisted folks are actually regular.

DR: Have you ever met a ‘normal’ person in your life?  I don’t think I have.

JL: No, there’s no such thing as normal people.

Ice-T: They’re boring.  All artists are insane.

RP: Yeah, we’re all neurotic.

DR: A lot of the artists today may not really have that creative urge…a lot of what you see on MTV is just eye candy.

Ice-T: Creativity doesn’t necessarily pay the bills… I need to sell out, I got bills!

DR: Weren’t you in one of those Leprechaun movies?

Ice-T: Yep, Leprechaun in the Hood, I made a grip on that one! 

LQ: Leprechauns!

Ice-T: No, I wasn’t no leprechaun, I was a pimp! 

RP: Oh my God! (laughter)

Ice-T: …I think the best thing about hip-hop is that we’re one culture that actually got some of the money from something we created.  Like, there is a Puffy, there is a Master P, there is an Ice-T, there is a Dr.Dre… we own our clothing lines, we own our publishing… I think the hustler part of hip-hop is what saved it.  Because hip-hop came out of the hood but there was a lot of hustlers, like Fab 5 Freddy.  When I got in rap, I had three pagers on me.  I got out here with cats that were like, ‘Let’s make a record.’  I’m like, okay.  They was like, ‘Let’s get high.’  I don’t get high.  ‘Let’s drink.’ I don’t drink.  Nigga, I know about this pager goin’ off.  So when we got into it, it was about paper with us.  And that hustlin’ mentality – now kids are comin’ outta the streets and gettin’ into it.  And any of these little rap groups you got - there’s a business-minded cat in that organization.  And maybe what he was doin’ before was wrong, and he knows this is his chance – and that’s why you seein’ this thing do billions and billions of dollars.  I’m proud of that… Back when (Lee) started doin’ videos, it was early, the breakers were breakin’ and they were like, ‘We ain’t get no money!’  I remember when I was in Breakin’, niggas was scared, like, ‘Oh, we ain’t gonna get paid!’  You know why?  Because we were all kids.  So nobody really needed money, you would go rap at the club and go home and kick it, you didn’t need it.

RP: I’ve never said I didn’t need money, I needed money when I came out the fuckin’ womb!

All: (laughter)

RP: Although I went to really good schools and I was very well educated, I still came from Williamsburg and Bushwick.  So it’s like, with intelligence and knowledge – what do you mean?  All I get is a two-piece Kentucky Fried Chicken lunchbox (as a dancer) on Soul Train?  I was waitin’, I thought we were eatin’ food and then we were gonna get paid!  I stepped to (Soul Train producer) Don Cornelius, I said, ‘yo, homie, for real, you know?’

All: (laughter)

RP: I used to choreograph for Bobby Brown.  There was no hip-hop choreographers (before that).  There were hip-hop background dancers that would make up routines for the band that they exclusively danced with. No one had the mindset to say, why don’t I freelance?  …For me – not to toot my own horn – I was the first hip-hop choreographer that got paid… Went (to Bobby Brown’s studio), would not start a fucking move until I got my check.  That’s ghetto… If my work is all over the screen, and it’s all over the tours, you are gonna pay me.  That’s gangsta…and that’s the audacity of hip-hop culture…that’s why we became successful.

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